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Post by Galaxy on Jun 11, 2015 9:24:20 GMT 1
I changed this thread to a feedback thread.The next patch (so after the Johanna patch) will automatically queue 5-man team together with Team League teams (read more in this official blog). Hence the question was asked if we shouldn’t consider playing in Team League (TL) more from now on. However we tried that a couple of times and got destroyed .. and nobody likes losing. The fun is gone if that happens to often. So that means if we want to do TL we need to know who is in and willing to improve their game. Since otherwise we will keep getting destroyed in these games. Everybody agrees there. The difficult question is: how do we improve our game ?We noticed in a lot of games we lost in QM / HL a typical mistake is we blame other people or situations instead of ourselves. Thats very natural. But it might not be realistic. Some players also synergise well with each other while others don't. So because of that I had the idea of a simple test to know who has the right motivation for TL: analyse your replays and note down your own mistakes. But although some people found it a good idea others said they appreciate more the feedback from others or do not have the extra time to watch the replay etc etc. People will have different motivations, experience, understanding etc for this game. I think I was to quick in making the call on TL participation, so because of that lets change the TL requirements together so everyone can participate and learn.. Here is my idea on how TL can work for us, but please feel free to give your own... Play more custom games- We create regular 4v4 or 5v5 games between each other whenever enough ppl are online (like we did once before)
- We mix up the team players and rotate in those custom games, there is no 2 teams here, just 1
 - We give each other feedback during/after those games like we do now
Team League games
- We will have 2 Insignia Zero Teams instead of 1 (much like Cloud9 Maelstrom and Cloud9 Vortex)
- The first team is for the players who want to take it more serious and the second team for the semi-serious ones
- The players themselves decide in which team they want to be
I'd like to hear your feedback on this. Can this work ? Do you have other or better idea's? Let's discuss together on how we can achieve this 
Below you will still find a few replays where each of us participated in. You are free to use them and send feedback or use other replays. You don't have to. If you do, download the replay file your name is mentioned, open it in-game and write down mistakes you saw or even what you think should/could have prevented it. You can send it to me or us if you want but its primarily meant for you. You can find these replay files in the replay folder. Dragon Shire (122): Elshagan, Galaxy, LeMoindreMal, fishman, theforcedk Dragon Shire (120): Ipimus Cursed Hollow (94): LeMoindreMal, Hammerless Blackheart's Bay (78): Mitt, Will Tomb of the Spider Queen (81): Torono, Ralistic Garden of Terror (105): SteelShana, Dalamar
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Post by hammerless on Jun 12, 2015 21:25:25 GMT 1
Good idea. Playing against each other is a good way to learn.
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Post by Shana on Jun 13, 2015 7:49:27 GMT 1
Yup. And feedback is a good idea too. My own general thoughts? MOAR FOCUS! I mean we should be more focused on the game. We tend to have trouble, especially early game, beacuse of that. Sometimes we manage to come back, and I only saw it happen when everybody concentrated on playing.
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Post by fishkaya on Jun 22, 2015 14:29:14 GMT 1
Has anyone played team league yet since this was posted, i'd like to play it can we try make this a thing it kinda got ignored the first time.
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Post by Galaxy on Jun 22, 2015 14:42:12 GMT 1
Well we haven't yet but Dalamar did have a good idea of training vs AI he just didn't post that idea on this forum yet. Just hop into the hots ts channel, its the best place to discuss how we want TL prep to happen. And while we are getting our heads together on that topic, we just keep having our fun |
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Post by Shana on Jun 23, 2015 7:16:14 GMT 1
And to answer the inevitable "why AI, can't we train on qm?" question: Because you don't have to think about strategy vs AI so you can try out new things, focus on little improvements like calling out stuns, stun order, response time, setting up ganks etc without fear of loosing the match.
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Post by Shana on Jun 24, 2015 7:36:56 GMT 1
We need a plan before we start a game. I mean, in qm it's random map an we can get lucky or not with our composition but we need to have at least general idea. All the tims we knew upfront who is in the roaming squad went way better than the times when announcer counts from 10 and we still discuss who takes which line. So I think we should have some general tactics for maps. Ofc there already are tactics for maps, so we can just learn them and apply whichever we find most useful in given situation.
tl;dr We need a plan before we start a game, not make it untill half of the match.
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Post by Galaxy on Jun 24, 2015 8:33:58 GMT 1
Yes agree discussing or aligning to long during the game makes everyones gameplay worse. The reason we are discussing so much however is because our fundamentals are different and we all make many stupid mistakes. It can be frustrating but its because we are not aligned yet.
For example, i've noticed we don't know the same things, eg taking the siege camp at mines and waiting for the right time so siege giants stay defended behind gate when attacking golem = great ! One of the first times I see that discipline happening as a team. But then again, we were with 4 or even 5 ppl there taking the camp which is a waste of 4 ppl, we had eg sylvanas in the team and its obv heroes like her solo the siege while not wasting the time of the rest.
Other things like sky temple which we were really recovering well second half, but if you think about it, who of us knows bruiser camp should be taken around half a min before bot temple around min 4isch starts ? Cause we didnt. That sky temple tactic is just a concrete example of the camp fundamentals about taking mercenaries so they push while objectives are contested.
But we share feedback and we help each other which is good.
There are so many fundamentals which we are making mistakes in but learning together. And we should keep discussing it. For example, if a tank gets killed for no reason at the wrong times it can snowball easily like we saw happening. Which makes us disappointed etc etc
Thats normal. So the tank should learn from it. I could say the same things about anyone of us probably. I saw a (half health) zeratul teleporting away from a 3v2 in our favour when both enemies were low health. So they got away. In general our DPS is sometimes to scared eg that zeratul void prison was awesome 2x in a row on that map and both times dps couldn't follow up on it. That says something about what we need to practice : communication but also mana usage. The amount of times I heard people saying "I have no mana" at the wrong times (right before objectives or before team fight) is also not good. Bloody hell, we even went into mines at boss with 4 ppl instead of 5 because one of us heartstoned due to low mana. Thats just bad. What we need to think about is how to be mana-efficiënt with our heroes so we do have enough mana for the right times eg if you went from one team fight into another with ppl constantly on low mana that means you enaged to many team fights. Learning to pause between things and have ppl full health + mana w/o losing xp is important. Also dps frontlining and instead of the tank is very risky and something I saw often. I saw myself not healing Dalamar cause I was to frustrated about ppl getting killed for no reason or worse for discussing or challenging decisions. I saw myself not being at the right location in time several times. How can we deal better with shrines at dragon map (cause thats a weak point atm) ? I remember saying we need a roaming squad of 2 people to help contest shrines (implying the single person at the other shrine plays passively). The problem is: I said it during the start of the game. To late like you said. And who was the roaming squad anyway ? Did we think about it ? Nope. Did the tank call out initiations ? Nope.
The best way to view it all is to learn from the mistakes by taking it more easy.
But ... we had awesome games as well. Because in general we were more calm, better prepared.
So maybe its a good idea to go in a custom game with the 5 ppl in the group and talk through map strategies / laning etc together ? To take the time and get alignment and share knowledge and ideas ? Dalamar wasn't into it yesterday but I think its needed to train our fundamentals together.
And the AI matches we need to keep practicing for callouts / stuns / chaining etc cause none of that I saw happening yesterday/
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Post by Shana on Jun 24, 2015 9:07:11 GMT 1
We can combine it by going into custom match and setting AI as oponents. This way we can practise against set compositions on set maps and stuns/callouts etc. Fighting against each other is cool but I'd say it's something we do for fun rather than practise. [Btw tuesdays are ragedays because they're noobdays (ok, so what does the "Q" do again?... oh! there was a trib? Sorry I was busy reading talents)]
Also I think we should do an AI warmup every time. To focus, to remember about callouts etc. I remember it worked really well when we went qm from a "focus on callouts" AI match. It takes little time and gives us a lot.
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Post by Galaxy on Jun 24, 2015 9:16:11 GMT 1
yes combo custom / AI is absolutely good idea |
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Post by lemoindremal on Jun 24, 2015 10:43:09 GMT 1
One more thing I would like to add (and that won't please everyone) is that we have have to, each one of us, to chose 2-3-4 Heroes/classes that we would play in TL/HL. ( And ONLY those ones) For example : I do like to play support (My favourite so far are BW and Uther) so I will ONLY play those ones if I play support during that game. If someone else is already playing support (Galaxy for example). Then I switch to another class of heroes of course (assassin, tank or pusher). For each class we need MAX 2 heroes (numbers can be discussed, I would even go for only 1 hero every class) that we continously play. When playing TL/HL we have to be know as 'the Uther player' or 'The murky/Abathur' player. This is the only way, in my opinion, we really get used to play together. At the moment everyone is just switching from 1 hero to antoher and we get used to nothing.. I hope I made myself clear  (I am a french guy) |
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Post by Galaxy on Jun 24, 2015 10:50:22 GMT 1
One more thing I would like to add (and that won't please everyone) is that we have have to, each one of us, to choice 2-3-4 Heroes/classes that we would play in TL/HL. (And ONLY those ones) For example : I do like to play support (My favourite so far are BW and Uther) so I will ONLY play those ones if I play support during that game. If someone else is already playing support (Galaxy for example). Then I switch to another class of hereoes of course (assassin, tank or pusher). For each class we need MAX 2 heroes (numbers can be discussed, I would even go for only 1 hero every class). When playing TL/HL we have to be know as 'the Uther player' or 'The murky/Abathur' players. This is the only way in my opinion we really get used to play together. At the moment everyone is just switching from 1 hero to antoher and we get used to nothing.. I hope I made myself clear (I am a french guy) Yeah you made yourself clear but choose an avatar please (and you just did lol) I think its important people stick to their roles so they get used to the positioning that comes with it. But its also important to fulfull other roles because rotations will be needed during draft strategies or people that replace people. Its about knowing your hero very well. Its also about knowing your role very well. A dps frontlining when engaging is a nono. A tank being behind the group when engaging is a nono. A support being in front is a nono. etc |
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Post by Shana on Jun 24, 2015 11:00:06 GMT 1
Well, when we go full-serious-let's-own-them I'm your Anub or Zagara. But I don't like the idea of not being able to play other heroes. Of course I won't take DPS to HL but I will insist on playing it sometimes if only for the change.
The general idea of "play what you play well and master it" is good though. Just please let's not be *too* strict about it.
Edit: Oh, wait. You said HL. Choose your role and stick to it - yes, yes, yes!
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Post by lemoindremal on Jun 24, 2015 11:00:25 GMT 1
yes, of course. If we need more assassins or heals (2 instead of 1) etc .. We would just pick the class that is needed. But if so, we would ALWAYS pick the same 1-2 healers/assassins/pushers/tanks we always do play. And not just switch from one to another, like I do sometimes " Oh I am gonna try Stiches this game .. Oh this time lets try Anub " => NO ! it should be like: "OK, we have enough dps / heal? OK I pick my tank (1 or 2 you ALWAYS play and know by hearth) |
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Post by lemoindremal on Jun 24, 2015 11:02:24 GMT 1
PS: Heroes can change of course .. like when new heroes come out. But if you want to try something with a specific hero, do it on QM. Thats the idea  (until you master it and then apply it to HL/TL) |
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(I am a french guy) 
(until you master it and then apply it to HL/TL)